GGACR/Venom/Matchups: Difference between revisions

Revision as of 01:28, 11 August 2022

This page is missing significant information.

You can help by editing it.

This page covers advanced topics which require competitive expertise to confirm.

Content here can be considered incomplete until expertise is given.

Venom

General Details

Below are matchup summaries for Venom, with more detailed 'full' matchup breakdowns detailed below. There are also some general themes worth noting:

Venom excels against characters that:

Lack an answer to the tempo dominance posed by ball set, and are forced to approach.
Do not have reversals, a single reversal, or a suite of mediocre reversals.
Lack reliable answers to his f.S and 2S in the midrange.
Cannot punish f.S/2S > 214X on block or contest c.S/5H > 421X.

Venom struggles with:

High-reward 'gambling' tools that leave the opponent spaced out, or outside of throw range and safer than -5.
Counterhit-fishing tools and characters who can convert stray pokes in neutral into strong damage or knockdowns.
Strong reversals (or guard cancels), or multiple reversal/abare tools that require different coverage.
Full-screen options that can be used to prevent or outright punish ball sets in Venom's traditionally strong ranges.
Steep air approaches or approach-covering tools, which cannot be contested with 6P or air thrown on incoming.
Opponents who can cover against universal defensive options without sacrifices, giving Venom "one chance" to be wrong.

These sections are difficult to make, time-consuming to write, and require lots of vetting by strong players. Please be understanding of the fact that these are few, far between, and slow to update.

Matchups

Justice

JusticeHighly atypical because of Justice's nukes and fullscreen tools, but navigable with a mix of anti-zoning and careful movement.

Struggle

In many ways, this matchup is a tempo contest. Justice's NukesGuardAllStartup7RecoveryTotal 51Advantage-13 vastly out-perform Venom's balls in most ways, but lack their flexibility. As such, Venom's goal is to avoid letting Justice use zoning formations that fully wall out balls, either forcing her to come to him or spend valuable time clearing the screen with pre-detonations.

Notes for specific ball formations will be at the bottom of this sheet.

Round Start

Round start is a fairly decisive moment in this matchup, owing to how much momentum Justice can generate off a single knockdown (as can Venom, full disclosure). However, Venom is at a far greater risk of being knocked down than Justice. Generally, caution is advised, with an emphasis being placed on staying on your feet; even if Justice gets a nuke off at round start, it is far easier to play around when she lacks meter and you're still in f.S range. Venom's 6P is quite effective versus many of Justice's round start options, but is still dangerously exposed to Justice's massive sweep - going back to our core risk of being knocked down. Defensive movement like backdashing and jumping back can be effective, but take care to not cede too much space to Justice; maintaining a spacing where your f.S is a threat is huge.

TK H Michael SwordGuardAllStartup21Recovery25+10 after landingAdvantage- deserves special mention as an absolutely menacing round start tool which, when done immediately, will beat out or avoid everything Venom can do at round start. If it is done slightly late, Venom can 6P it, but this really depends on both a good read and a mistake on the Justice's part. Exercise extreme caution if a Justice displays their willingness and ability to consistently leverage this tool at round start.

Tempo

This matchup is... weird. This is sort of putting boundaries on broad spreads of interactions for the sake of intelligibility, but there are a few core phases this matchup can pass through that are important. Do not expect any of these phases to last forever; Justice is more than likely to score a counter, sweep, FB, or Overdrive eventually. Besides, you need to earn your damage. The phases are, roughly, as follows:

Venom secures poking advantage
- Justice will frequently seek to resolve this by using much more of her counterGuardStartup5RecoveryTotal 38Advantage- in neutral, which beats mids (f.S, 2S, 6P) but loses to lows (please be judicious about using Venom's 2D in neutral), projectiles, and throws.
- Poking with a ball at the same time loses to Justice's counter; you can, however, use projectiles to cover advancing lows.
- You can play off this by closing space and trying to throw, or by setting up more thorough projectile play.

Venom secures zoning advantage
- Justice will frequently seek to resolve this by using NukeGuardAllStartup7RecoveryTotal 51Advantage-13 FRC to get a stronger projectile on screen, or with Saperia TranceGuardStartup5RecoveryTotal 38Advantage-, and Michael BladeGuardMidStartup9+4Recovery46Advantage-14, to interrupt zoning/setting paterns.
- Simple formations like P Set > 5P loops can be great for keeping Justice from getting a nuke on screen without spending meter, but are highly vulnerable to Justice's fullscreen options.
- Depending on the discipline of the opposing Justice, this can be a great way to get them to blow huge amounts of time and meter trying to clear the screen and hit you, or to make them slowly approach.

Justice secures defensive zoning (projectiles close to her)
- This can be a good time to try and leverage enhanced H Stinger Aim or fast balls that will go between the P and K nukes, either to score hits, make Justice block, or defensively pre-detonate the nukes.
- Closing space and leveraging f.S's poking/trading power can be extremely powerful at this time.
- Don't over-commit to defensive zoning; if the Justice is competent at pre-detonating, you can end up lagging behind and getting cornered as you back off for safer sets.

Justice secures offensive zoning (projectiles close to you)
- Pick a higher power of choice and pray.
- Dark Angel has limited use for buying a gap in nuke placement, but is by no means a dedicated way out.
- Justice may be forced to approach to ward off Negative Penalty or, if it is present, to make up a life deficit. Be prepared to deal with her overheads, and be willing leverage FD to buy space to poke out if she gets closer than her nukes.

Managing Nukes

So, nukes are already on screen. There are a few ways Venom can deal with these, some unduly risky and some quite reasonable.

f.S has two utilities. At the last third or so of its range, where it is fully disjointed, you can readily poke Justice out of movement behind nukes, and out of launching a nuke (just shy of full screen while zoomed in). The less disjointed portion of its range can be used to trigger nukes intentionally, eating a single low-damage hit that won't knock down in exchange for taking the nuke off the screen.

Just disjointed enough for the job. A highly valuable normal in this matchup.

6P can be superb for sniping actual nuke sets, but lacks trading potential due to its disjoint disappearing very shortly after going active, which will lead to Justice remaining standing while you are knocked down.

H Stinger Aim, enhanced to level two, can occasionally make it through nukes, but this feels basically semi-random. Level three balls, from both S and H Stinger will pass through, however. FB Stinger Aim will ricochet off nukes, but when charged can pass through the nukes, meaning it generally takes longer; generally this is disadvantageous.

Dark Angel does not interact with nukes at all, and can be used to force Justice to enter the air or block, but be mindful of Air Saperia TranceGuardAllStartup11Recovery14Advantage-, which can let Justice move around Dark Angel's fixed path.

Dark Angel and Tactical ArchGuardStartup12RecoveryTotal 17Advantage- can both be used to set up super freeze unblockables, either with each other or with normal balls, which is an expensive but- if deployed properly- effective way of attacking Justice through a screen of nukes.

Anti-Airs

Contrary to popular belief, you actually can anti-air Justice, but it is admittedly hard. Meeting her air-to-air with j.P and rising j.D can be strong, and in the case of j.P, will consistently lead to knockdowns or air-to-ground blockstrings if you aren't beaten outright.

5P can force clashes with Justice's j.H if spaced (leading to an advantageous situation for Venom, since his 6P then becomes almost impossible to beat), and 6P must be done late and deep, but will work.

Typically this height is quite awkward for Venom to convert off of, but owing to Justice's size, CH 6P > 214P > 5P > 6H is possible.

Running under her is also essential to avoid getting backed into a corner, which is where this matchup usually ends for Venoms who walk themselves to the wall on accident.

Ball Sequences to Bypass Nukes:

Ball Hits

214P/S/D > early 5P/K/H - Line drives that will go between P and K Nukes
214D > late 2K/2S/5K - Low ball below P Nuke
214K > 214P > 5H - Faster set of ball its between P and K Nukes
- 214P > 214K~D > 5H > 214P > 5H can work as a set of two fast volleys
214H 214D > 2S/66 5K > 2K - Set of low balls

Teleports

One-ball sets that place a ball far horizontally and vertically (Namely H and H~D) are hugely important, and to some extent, are key to navigating Justice's nukes and to making zoning more difficult and unappealing [VIDEO EXAMPLE]
Two-ball formations that cover a lot of horizontal and vertical space (P > D, and D > P~D) can be used to give yourself both a ball to use and a teleport checkpoint to move around nuke pressure. [VIDEO EXAMPLE]
Adding to these formations by jumping during the second set can create situations where your teleports are extremely safe, and Justice's only reasonable counterplay is to try and hard read a teleport

Overview | Frame Data | Matchups | Strategy | Reverse Matchup Return to Top

Potemkin

PotemkinA matchup where you either win from neutral or die on your back.

Even

A lot of people's first impulse is to put this matchup in the 'zoner vs. grappler' category where the zoner wins, but Potemkin has enough anti-zoning tools, and enough damage if he does get in, to force Venom to be an active participant in the matchup.

Broadly speaking, Venom does well in neutral provided you don't over-commit to a passive option (ie, ball set in neutral, where Potemkin will Slide Head you) or give Potemkin a free flick (a slow, linear ball with no change in timing). Within these two parameters, though, there's a fairly broad range of ways to approach the matchup. Playing defense is rough, though, between Venom's complete lack of defensive options aside from system mechanics, sub-par frame data for mashing, and his relatively low overall health.

STRATEGY TIPS:

Round start

Pretty tricky; really your main goal is to avoid getting knocked down, as Venom already has a hard time escaping Potemkin pressure, and this only gets worse without meter
Block and slight delay backdash are relatively reliable and safe
5P/5K will interrupt many of Potemkin's grounded buttons, but will lose to his more committal options

Ideal range

Playing between Venom's 2S and f.S with a ball nearby is extremely powerful
The combined normal and ball hit render hammerfall a complete non-factor
The normal hitting before flick will also make trying to flick the ball on a read extremely difficult, but take care to not reach into flick
Potemkin can be readily anti-aired and air-to-aired at this range; 6P is quite consistent against Potemkin and will just about always lead to 6P > DBC combos
Outside of Heat Knuckle range, neutral jumping with a ball nearby can be difficult for Potemkin to navigate
- Can mix between jump, double jump, and air ball set to disrupt Slide Head and anti-air attempts
f.S/2S > Stinger will also invalidate Hammerfall by default, but this requires good awareness and charge management

Meter

Playing to strip Potemkin of meter can be important to deny Hammerfall FRC, though this is dependent on how the Potemkin is playing and using meter

Ball speed

Do not slowball at ground level if at all possible
A flicked ball is more or less an instantaneous neutral loss, though you can still reverse the situation
Hitting slow balls with f.S, 5H, or H Stinger can work wonders for changing their timing, but also take care to not get hit by Slide Head while setting these up

Defense

Mix between backdash and FD jump in similar situations, otherwise it's too easy for Potemkin to hard read backdash or jump every time
- Potemkin generally needs a hard read to cover an FD jump; getting Potemkin to mis-read and cover jump will be way more disruptive to his pressure than mis-reading and covering backdash
Venom basically cannot contest Hammerfall Brake > PB from level three or higher moves on normal block
- Venom's status as a 5f character makes him incredibly susceptible to Hammerfall Brake pressure on the whole; you cannot fight out of Pot pressure - you need to escape it
Wait until after a Hammerfall to use Dead Angle Attack; getting your Dead Angle Attack eaten will leave you short on meter and probably close to death
Venom's backdash, while not incredible, is pretty good for dealing with Potemkin pressure
Know about Hammerfall FRC pressure.
- 2S > Hammerfall > FRC is nightmarish; it beats Dead Angle Attack, all of Venom's mash options, confirms into huge combos on hit, and loops pressure on block.

Notable Footage

N-Otoko vs. FAB at G3 Exhibition (Note: This is AC footage; it is still helpful)

PepperySplash vs. Shine at Combo Breaker's LOOK ALIVE Day 1 @ 44:59

Fino vs. FAB at Mikado casuals (Note: This is AC footage; it is still helpful)

Overview | Frame Data | Matchups | Strategy | Reverse Matchup Return to Top

Testament

TestamentDespite the disparity in perceived character strength, this matchup is pretty even and highly interactive.

Comfy

Despite the disparity in perceived character strength, this matchup is relatively balanced and highly interactive. Due to Venom's ability to comfortably play at range, Testament is typically the aggressor in neutral situations. Furthermore, because of Venoms's ability to control screen space with minimal commitment, tools like unleveled webs are significantly less centralizing. Beast being a full-screen control tool, however, is the thing that really tilts the matchup in Testament's favor more than anything else.

SPECIFIC INTERACTIONS:

Testament cannot get throw combos on Venom. While he can still get a curse or oki, which are both excellent, his throw pressure is significantly defanged.
- This can alleviate some pressure in Beast oki situations, where you can focus more on just blocking.
Testament's height is problematic for him as a defender. He is relatively easy to fuzzy and can be hit by big-body exclusive rejump combos.
Nightmare Circular (632146S/H (mostly S in this case)) deletes projectiles. Setups that rely heavily on balls for safety or pressure should be used carefully when Testament has 50% tension.

STRATEGY TIPS:

Covering angles that go slightly upwards and slightly downwards from horizontal are very strong for disrupting Testament's nets, summon patterns, and neutral movement.
Stinger FRC is a very important neutral and defensive tool against Testament, both for baiting Warrant and interrupting Beast pressure. It's uncommon for Venom to have to consistently spend meter in neutral like this, but it can be very important.
Air summon is good in safe (see: un-trapped) airspace to avoid Beast interactions entirely
At lower levels of play, backdashing Beast setups and taking the air hit can be used to throw off the combo routing of newer/weaker Testaments. This should be done sparingly; treat it like any other reversal option. It is significantly more powerful if you can do it with a ball in motion to cover you.

Notable Footage

Fiestament's 'Oops! All Venom' event ft. BlackSNAKE, Hursh, PepperySplash, and Ryan Hunter

Overview | Frame Data | Matchups | Strategy | Reverse Matchup Return to Top

Venom

VenomA very uneven-feeling even matchup. Venom's brutal offence tends to steamroll his lackluster defense, and the neutral is hectic.

Struggle

This is a very bizarre matchup, simultaneously highly engaging and extremely obnoxious. Venom usually has the ability to place a huge amount of a given match's decision making burden on the opponent, but because this is the mirror, it ends up being a very draining and micromanagement-focused matchup. Because Venom's throw game is so good, and his defense is so bad, a Venom playing sloppy offense will quickly find themselves playing defense with few ways out of pressure; Venom basically hard counters himself on offense. As with all of Venom's matches, establishing ball sets and space control in neutral is absolutely imperative.

SPECIFIC INTERACTIONS:

Venom's face-up wakeup is extremely fast
- Comes from 6H, 2D(2), j.H, Dubious Curve (though the slide changes things), and air ball hits, among other tools
- This generally means that Venom can have a very hard time pressuring himself on wakeup; faster or earlier ball hits are often necessary to keep setups un-jumpable

STRATEGY TIPS:

Mind the reversal throw
- A defending Venom will likely make heavy use of IB > throw in defensive situations, so mix up air strings and don't exhaust your air gatlings early. j.D and Mad Struggle are very helpful for keeping air blockstrings true
Body-blocking can be very important
- Venom's meterless non-c.S interactions tend to be unsafe and low-damage, meaning blocking a hit or trading to keep a ball in motion can be very important
Anti-anti-air
- Venom's anti-air options are extremely committal. As such, making use of Venom's offensive tools that stall his air movement- namely all three Mad Struggle variants- is important for baiting and punishing anti-airs.

Notable Footage

BlackSNAKE vs. PepperySplash at Frosty Faustings XIII Online @ 32:55'

Overview | Frame Data | Matchups | Strategy | Reverse Matchup Return to Top

Zappa

ZappaA rough and weird matchup that takes a lot of key tools off the table, demanding both tight decision making and execution.

Struggle

Zappa's dash low profiles Stinger Aim and f.S (use 2S as your primary midrange poke instead), eliminating a large portion of Venom's midscreen presence. To counter this, making strong use of lower ball hits (such as S ball and D ball) is important for checking Zappa's dashes. Also, be mindful of the fact that c.S(3) will whiff on Zappa if he's crouch blocking, which makes tight blockstrings considerably more difficult.

At round start, the best thing to do is play reactively. Zappa's Centipedes (236P) and backdash together can beat or avoid most of Venom's round start options, including 2S. As such, backing off or waiting are typically fairly strong.

SPECIFIC INTERACTIONS:

f.S - Whiffs on run. Utilize 2S instead.
Stinger Aim - Whiffs on run. Use low ball hits instead.
5P - Whiffs on crouch and run. Not a particularly useful button in the matchup. Use 2P to replace 5P in the typical burst-safe 5P > 5P > 5P > 2D knockdown string.
c.S(3) - Only two hits connect on block. Re-orient blockstrings; use c.S(1) > S Carcass instead of c.S(3) > S Carcass as your core blockstring structure.

SUMMONS:

'Naked' - Centipedes (236P) is a major threat in the matchup, and to some extent it must be played around; Venom can deal with naked Zappa adequately, but all of the summons are to some degree problematic, so preventing summons is of the utmost priority. Centipedes is -12 on block though, so while you will have to play around it, it can be punished with 2D from further away or 2S > 5H up close.

Ghosts - While Venom can't exactly swing for the fences, this is probably the most manageable phase in the matchup. Waiting for a potential over-extension, where all three Ghosts are on cooldown, is generally a great opportunity to try and get something started, though Zappa's mobility is still problematic. Venom can block out Ghosts with relative ease though, so getting locked down isn't as directly threatening as with other summons.

Sword - Fighting Sword is very difficult for Venom; Venom gets pinned down by it easily and dies quickly. As a saving grace, once he's escaped pressure, Venom has a large number of tools to alter his movement in the air with ball set, Mad Struggle, FB Mad Struggle, and mixed options like airdash set, which limits Sword's ability to give chase or or corner Venom again.

Dog - Playing evasively is extremely important for fighting Dog, and your first priority should be to avoid getting sandwiched between Zappa and Dog. Past that, killing the dog and setting balls to reinforce pressure are extraordinarily important.

Raoh -

Notable Footage

BlackSNAKE vs. KBNova at UFGTX

(More footage can be found in part one, but this has the bulk of their set)

PepperySplash vs. KBNova at Frosty Faustings XIII Online @ 1:14:10

N男 vs. Kuro at a-cho 3v3 (2013.1.13) @ 29:49

Overview | Frame Data | Matchups | Strategy | Reverse Matchup Return to Top

Navigation

Venom

Guilty Gear XX Accent Core Plus R ^e

Click [★] for character's full frame data

• Starter Guide • HUD • Controls • Frame Data & System Data • FAQ • Training Mode •
• Movement/Canceling • Offense • Defense • Damage/Combo System • Gauges • Misc •

@@ Line 9: / Line 9: @@
 Venom '''excels''' against characters that:
-* Lack an answer to the tempo dominance posed by ball set, or can't match his resource building, and are forced to approach.
+* Lack an answer to the tempo dominance posed by ball set, and are forced to approach.
-** {{CLabel|GGACR|Ky Kiske|label=Ky}} lacks a solid answer to ball set in his own zoning suite, and must usually approach or play outside of his comfortable ranges to make things happen.
+* Do not have reversals, a single reversal, or a suite of mediocre reversals.
-* Do not have reversals, have a single reversal, or a suite of mediocre reversal-adjacent tools.
+* Lack reliable answers to his {{clr|3|f.S}} and {{clr|3|2S}} in the midrange.
-** {{CLabel|GGACR|Axl Low|label=Axl}} has a large amount of reversals and reversal-adjacent tools, but Venom can readily cover most or all of them at once.
-* Lack reliable answers to his {{clr|3|f.S}} and {{clr|3|2S}} in the midrange, and are forced to move out of the way of mid-height balls.
-** {{CLabel|GGACR|Testament|label=Testament}} is liable to find {{clr|3|f.S}} tremendously disruptive to their neutral game plan, and while they can contest ball set easily, once a ball is out, they have to deal with it.
-** {{CLabel|GGACR|Johnny|label=Johnny}} is another character that can get 'stuck' behind active ball(s), and is usually forced to jump, use a leveled {{MMC|game=GGACR|chara=Johnny|input=236K Lv2|label=Mist Finer}}, or spend meter.
 * Cannot punish <code>{{clr|3|f.S/2S}} > 214X</code> on block or contest <code>{{clr|3|c.S}}/{{clr|4|5H}} > 421X</code>.
-** {{CLabel|GGACR|I-No|label=I-No}} has great space control in the form of {{MMC|game=GGACR|chara=I-No|input=632146K|label=HCL}}, but can really struggle to prevent Venom from putting balls on screen on block.
 Venom '''struggles''' with:
 * High-reward 'gambling' tools that leave the opponent spaced out, or outside of throw range and safer than -5.
-** {{CLabel|GGACR|Sol Badguy|label=Sol's}} {{MMC|game=GGACR|chara=Sol Badguy|input=236[K]|label=Bandit Bringer}} and {{CLabel|GGACR|Slayer|label=Slayer's}} {{MMC|game=GGACR|chara=Slayer|input=236P|label=P Mappa}} are great at harassing Venom without fear of equivalent punishment.
 * Counterhit-fishing tools and characters who can convert stray pokes in neutral into strong damage or knockdowns.
-** {{CLabel|GGACR|Anji Mito|label=Anji's}} ability to be belligerent with threatening, damaging conversion tools like {{MMC|game=GGACR|chara=Anji Mito|input=5H|label=5H}} and {{MMC|game=GGACR|chara=Anji Mito|input=236H|label=H Fuujin}} make him a menace.
-** {{CLabel|GGACR|Eddie|label=Eddie's}} {{MMC|game=GGACR|chara=Eddie|input=2S|label=2S}} can readily CH punish buttons into ball set, leading to an {{MMC|game=GGACR|chara=Eddie|input=22S|label=Invite Hell}} knockdown.
 * Strong reversals (or guard cancels), or multiple reversal/abare tools that require different coverage.
-** {{CLabel|GGACR|Baiken|label=Baiken}} is infamous for this owing to her guard cancels, though this problem is by no means Venom-exclusive.
-** {{CLabel|GGACR|Sol Badguy|label=Sol}}, between his {{MMC|game=GGACR|chara=Sol Badguy|input=623S|label=DP}}, {{MMC|game=GGACR|chara=Sol Badguy|input=214S|label=frame one low profile}}, and {{MMC|game=GGACR|chara=Sol Badguy|input=214K|label=fast airborne retreating overhead}} requires a great degree of diligence to pressure - it can be done though!
 * Full-screen options that can be used to prevent or outright punish ball sets in Venom's traditionally strong ranges.
-** {{CLabel|GGACR|Testament|label=Testament's}} {{MMC|game=GGACR|chara=Testament|input=41236S|label=far Beast}}, {{CLabel|GGACR|Potemkin|label=Potemkin's}} {{MMC|game=GGACR|chara=Potemkin|input=236S|label=Slide Head}}, and {{CLabel|GGACR|Justice|label=Justice's}} {{MMC|game=GGACR|chara=Justice|input=632146H|label=Michael Blade}} are all tools in this category.
 * Steep air approaches or approach-covering tools, which cannot be contested with {{clr|1|6P}} or air thrown on incoming.
-** {{CLabel|GGACR|Millia|label=Millia's}} {{MMC|game=GGACR|chara=Millia Rage|input=j.214K|label=pin}} is a great example of approach coverage that makes anti-airing very difficult
+* Opponents who can cover against universal defensive options without sacrifices, giving Venom "one chance" to be wrong.
-* Characters who can cover universal defensive options- Backdash, FD, Dead Angle, and Burst- without sacrifice (especially multiple at the same time).
-** {{CLabel|GGACR|Dizzy|label=Dizzy's}} mix should be feared, and you will learn to dread your fellow {{CLabel|GGACR|Venom|label=Venoms}}.
-<code>NOTE: Just because a character has something listed as something Venom struggles against, does not mean Venom does poorly against that character or cannot manage the tool in question.</code>
 These sections are difficult to make, time-consuming to write, and require lots of vetting by strong players. Please be understanding of the fact that these are few, far between, and slow to update.